Senate Bill 5: Confessions of a Retired Public Employee

Our problems can only be solved by all Americans coming together to work as a unified people to solve those problems.

To say that I am dazed and confused about Ohio Senate Bill 5 is putting it mildly.

I don’t think I have ever heard such venomous rhetoric about a single topic in my lifetime.

Both sides of SB 5 are engaged in a shouting match of hyperbole that's totally lacking in clarity and reason.

Trying to get to the truth about SB 5 is pretty much a lost cause. I looked up the entire bill on the state of Ohio’s website. The bill is 304 pages long and filled with government bafflegab. I tried very hard to read the bill but soon gave up the ghost.

I tried reading all the comments about SB 5 on North Canton Patch but was bewildered by the lack of sound arguments and reason on both sides.

Patch readers on both sides of the argument seem more intent on degrading the other side rather than giving the facts in a civil manner. Most of the comments made by both sides made me so upset that I had to reread my last . Most of the people leaving comments left me feeling that they were doing little more than venting.

As a retired public employee, I feel assailed and reviled on all fronts, so I thought I might offer my view for what it is worth.

When I went to work as a draftsman for the city of Canton, Ohio, in 1966 at the whopping hourly wage of $1.75, I did receive generous fringe benefits. 1966 was a time when the Ferguson Act governed the employer/employee relations of government employees in Ohio. Basically, public employees in Ohio in 1966 had no rights whatsoever. At that time government employees were not allowed to collectively bargain for anything. Nor were they allowed to join unions or strike. The ability to get a job in government was pretty much dependent upon political connections except for a few technical employees at a time when the world of government affairs was a pretty much a low tech enterprise.

What most people lose sight of is the fact that almost all of the fringe benefits that many people feel excessive were already in place at a time before government employees gained the right to unionize in 1983. In 1966 sick leave of 15 days a year was already in place. The vacation package given to public employees in 1966  was good, but really not any better than private companies I have worked for.

Comprehensive health care at the time was known as “hospitalization” because it only covered a trip to the hospital and not office visits. The all inclusive form of health care that we know now evolved slowly, because in those days it was cheaper to offer public employees fringe benefits instead of wage increases. The big jump in health care coverage came about in the late '70s and early '80s when state and local governments attempted to head off the union movement by trying to bribe public employees into not forming unions by offering extra fringe benefits. Almost all of the fringe benefits that certain politicians and voters feel are excessive were already in place before government workers became unionized. Once those of us who worked for the city of Canton became members of the American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees (AFSCME) we saw very little increase in fringe benefits and only moderate wage gains. Once we became unionized, government employees and our political leaders assumed the position of adversaries; a position that only lead to conflict.

At the time of my hiring in 1966, my employee contribution to the Ohio Public Employee Retirement System (OPERS) was 8.5 percent: much higher than employee contributions to Social Security. The disparity between employee contributions to the two systems has narrowed a little, but public employees in Ohio still pay a larger share of their wages to OPERS than workers covered by Social Security pay into the Social Security system. The current contribution rate is to OPERS is 10 percent and this is where I am concerned with statements made in a TV ad by Gov. John Kasich. In the ad, an indignant looking Kasich says in a rather harsh voice something to the effect that public employees should be required to pay 10 percent toward their retirement. I am not sure if I am missing something here or not, but maybe his writers should do a little fact checking since nearly all public employees are paying 10 percent or more. But both sides are remiss in bringing retirement benefits into the quagmire surrounding SB 5. Those retirement benefits and contribution rates are being addressed by two bills currently in the Ohio legislature: House Bill 69 and Senate Bill 3, which are currently on the back burner awaiting the outcome of the war over SB 5.

Contributions toward the cost of health care is another point of contention between proponents and opponents of  SB 5. Almost everyone I know including myself is contributing more and more toward their health care and I can see nowhere in SB 5 where the bigger issues surrounding the state of health care in the United States are being addressed.

But I think the biggest issue confronting people of reason is the attempt to take away the right of public employees to negotiate in good faith with their employers. Or should I say the representatives of their employers for I always felt that the citizens of the city of Canton and not the politicians were my true employers. If this right is taken away we risk going back to the era of cronyism that marked the years before 1983. I am not a fan of unions: They never really did anything for me except pocket my union dues. But to arbitrarily take away their right to bargain in good faith is a step backward. Most reasonable people in the United States see the need to reform our society’s excesses. Making the public employee the scapegoat for the problems that were created by politicians will not solve the situation. Sure, we are all mad about the current state of affairs in the United States. I like most people am mad as hell at both of our political parties; but taking away the rights of public employees will not do much to solve our problems. Our problems can only be solved by all Americans coming together to work as a unified people to solve those problems.

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Duane Gibson October 22, 2011 at 03:44 PM
When you wear blinders, you can only see what you choose to look at Vic. The pro issue 2 people want to portray outlandish lifestyles and "union thug bosses". The fact is most public employees earn a living wage. There are some exceptions, such as some exceptions to pension pick-ups, which are not as common as portrayed. The other fact is that union thug bosses are a dated hollywood stereotype that outside of the UAW no longer exist. You sound like an angry man who is not happy with how his life has turned out due to his own choices. Issue 2 will overturn SB5, as many people also understand that it is Unions who brought about 5 day work weeks, overtime pay, hospitalization, vacations, etc. etc. etc. Will there be some adjustments, certainly as some are needed. But I don't cut down my tree to prune the branches, and that is exactly what SB5 is doing. SB5 has little to do with employee benefits and everything to do with eliminating the donors to the candidates who DID NOT support Kasich. Why else privatize the turnpike and lose money?
Victor Mooney October 22, 2011 at 06:51 PM
Duane: Please don`t analyze me,[you could look it up, it`s called a dictionary]---I haven`t spoken about your views or your politics---I simply state the facts as I know them----Nothing which I have offered for your perusal has come from anwhere but me. don`t insult me with stories about 5 day weeks and vacations and health care---I was a union man before you were born[not talking about age here], and a lot happened before both of us. What I do know is this, I was there when the busloads of teachers and state employees showed up in Columbus, [I guess they were on their vacation], I watched the demonstrations in Wisconsin, and I am watching the "BS" in New York, with the UAW, Seiu, Afscme, signs and the support of the Communists, Socialists, etc---Your info is left wing playbook, right down the line. If that`s your tune, play it, but I think thee whistles in the dark, the boogy man is coming, ---thank you for your kind attention!
Tonto October 22, 2011 at 11:38 PM
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Joseph Dittmer October 23, 2011 at 01:21 AM
Thanks Ken for a reasoned presentation.I too was around before collective bargaining was initiated. In fact I was on the first bargaining team for employees in 1986 at the state level. Before bargaining, I can attest to the fact that state employees were virtually ignored when it came to pay and benefits. .Having read the entire SB5 twice, I can say It is only a few local government entities that have given good deals and picked up contributions for their employees. They obviously thought they could afford it. This bill goes far beyond what is necessary to fix what might be currently causing some fiscal problems for smaller localities. Since salaries and benefits at the state level only account for 9% of the entire state budget, these changes will have minimal effect on our budget problems. Since our hospitals require professionally trained people to provide services, I can only see deterioration there if this bill isn't repealed. This bill also allows the selling of state properties, creation of many additional powers in the hands of state level politicians that no one person should have. We ought not lose sight of the fact that SB5 will allow for almost a total takover by Columbus of any locally elected authority if they choose to do so. We owe it to our citizens to stop SB5 now and give everyone time to rethink all these far reaching issues and there are many which have never been given much air time so far that most people have no knowledge or understanding of.
Ken Palosi October 23, 2011 at 02:02 AM
@Joseph Dittmer. Thanks for the compliment and the additional perspective. I too have been studying the bill and one provision that I am concerned about as a voter and citizen of Ohio is the apparent carte blanche that S.B. 5 will give all levels of government the right to privatize any and all service without any recourse by the unions or more importantly by the voters. I don't want to see a private security firm patrolling my streets or McDonalds providing school lunch for my grandchildren.
Cynthea Sabolich October 23, 2011 at 11:08 AM
I reat Joseph Dittmer who is propogating a lie that "our hospitals need trained professional". What hospitals? Your local hospital is a non-profit. 99 % of all the hospitals in Ohio are already "private", including the Cleveland Clinic and University Hospitals. Many of them are from the Sisters of Charity. So if we privatize, let us hope it is in the same manner as these entities. I read hear about the very low pay of the University workers who are $16-20 dollars per hour to do all the needed deeds, and stating that their private sector counter parts are making $30 per hour. Then guess what, they would be stupid to stay in a job that under pays them. Ted Kennedy loved the unions too. He loved to make a strong National Labor Union Board. He loved all the alphabet soup of deductions and requirements, which most people never understand, the onerous additional costs to the employer, the matching funds or direct pays for unemployment benefits or employer mandated contributions. But when it came to taking money out of his own personal pocket, rich man that he was, he hired an illegal to mow his grass. And that is where we are headed. There will be no recovery in Ohio because no companies will come here. Those that are here will begin to move to South Carolina, or Kentucky. And we will begin to see how it worked out so well for Greece. When unsustainable meets no money, lay offs are the only outcome. Massive layoffs. And they protest to get them. DUH.
The original Bill October 23, 2011 at 02:18 PM
Ohio bankrupt? That is so laughable. Boy does Kasich have you duped. They just passed a 2 year budget where the state is spending $125 Billion. That's Billion. And the PERS fund has approximately $60 Billion in it to pay for retirees. It is by no means in danger of being bankrupt. You and others in favor of issue 2 are falling for the lies hook, line and sinker. The PD has a story that shows tax revenue is way up on everything that comes out of the middle class but is down from corporations and utilities. A state that is going bankrupt doesn't cut off a revenue stream.
Joseph Dittmer October 23, 2011 at 03:11 PM
Cynthia--by 'our hospitals' I was referring to the Ohio Department of Mental Health. In case you are not aware of it, Ohio has 6 remaining state hospitals with approximately 1000 patients who suffer from serious mental illness. Many are sent by courts for treatment after being arrested for a crime because they were not mentally stable at time of the crime or became psychotic after the crime. These hospitals and clinics found in each of our prisons require trained professionals-physicians, nurse, psychologist, pharmacists to help ensure these people get treatment and do not get released only to again become psychotic with no sense of reality.. The calibre of these professionals somewhat depends on the quality of compensation available. If the state wants to remain in the 21st centruy in its treatment of citizens, then we cannot revert to the times when these facilities depended on unlicensed people to do these things.Yes-there were times in the 1960-70s when these hospitals had to employ unlicensed doctors to do the work because the pay and benefits were so bad no one else would work there. We do not want this to happen again. Such is history. I don't know what your references to Ted Kennedy, right to work states where you have no rights,and Greece were about but you are lumping issues together which gets confusing here.
Cynthea Sabolich October 23, 2011 at 03:33 PM
As a retired Registered Nurse, I can tell you that the State of Ohio, or our local counties, have standards set by the licensing boards of both the doctors, and the nurses, and within the ORC which would make it illegal to do as you suggest. I have worked for both union and non-union hospitals and it is the free market which determines pay in the private sector. Cleveland Clinic sets limits on the number of days that can be accumulated, and the top tier of pay and believe me, they are considered great employers. To believe that employers don't want employees to be partners to have a good outcome is as one sided as believing that the union bosses are looking out for the public interests. That is a giant HA. They care about getting more and more until there is nothing left to give. That is the place we are at now. To say that you can buy caring personnel or have unlicensed doctors or unqualified staff is an insult to those currently employed in these places. I know them, and they will tell you they made their choice of employment, not because they were the bottom tier in their classes, or failed the exams to get their certification, but for a host of other reasons. You are saying the unions failed them again so SB5 won't change that.
Joseph Dittmer October 23, 2011 at 04:43 PM
Cynthia-I agree with you that people working with these patients are doing it mostly because of their dedication to the work and not primarily the money. Most are now very qualified as I have worked with them for 42 years. I know many physicians who have multiple part time jobs to make up what they consider inadequate salaries. I am not arguing over their competence but nothing would stop an administration to have several physician assistants supervised by one physician to provide services we would expect done by a fully qualified MD. I can also testify that places like the Cleveland Clinic pay psychiatrists more than the state of Ohio does and they can attract many well qualified people.I don't know why you are so set against an employee having a voice they would not have without a union present. Even with unions, a lot of people have grievances against management that don't get resolved but at least there is a mechanism to address them. Perhaps you were not around before collective bargaining in Ohio. I was and I would not want to work in a place that didn't have one.. As I said before, this SB5 is part of larger campaign to eradicate opposition to republican candidates on the national scene so republicans can take over and do things like eliminate Social Security, Medicare, and eliminate most regulations so Wall Streeters and big corporations can lord it over the rest of us and get richer. I simply do not understand what you all do not understnad about that picture.
Cynthea Sabolich October 24, 2011 at 12:16 PM
Joseph, thank you. I think you are actually speaking to me and asking me why I don't get it. Sir, I worked in the operating room of a major hospital and I can tell you that world class surgeons only show up to make a few stitches or cuts and most of it is done by trained PA's who do it well, daily, and sometimes better than the figure head. Why do I think it is skewed to have the employees be the boss? I see first hand the difference between the union shops and the places where the employers sets standards. At Metro, we all cheered the firing of a bad employee, only to have the union reinstate her 2 weeks later because there wasn't enough offical complaints in her file. So we all documented her behavior - her dangeous behavior at the OR table- only to have her sue the hospital, receive 2 years back pay, a settlement, and come back to work because she was 'targeted' by stuffing her file with real complaints. I've had nursing assistants sleep all night and tell me they're union protected them. Their job of monitoring urine samples from druggies was another revenue source for them - we had men test clean for drugs but positive for pregnancy! And they couldn't be fired. Not every teacher is Teacher of the Year, but under the current system, that person would get laid off while some dottering old bat keeps their top pay job. The system is broken. The money was spent by Strickland, not Wall Street. Stop the hysteria and start the process of fixing. Vote YES on 2 &3.
Jake Racketch October 24, 2011 at 02:11 PM
Excellent point. The tax breaks in this state and country should be enough to make those affected most by the economic downturn (ie: the middle class) see red.
Joseph Dittmer October 24, 2011 at 02:56 PM
Cynthia--I can see now where your vigilance comes from. Those situations are indeed inexcusable and the right administrator might be able to use the rules to get things righted. People who are screwing up should be able to be gotten rid of. However, this is a flaw not the norm. I don't think you would like to be given the sack because you are too conscientious and take too much time doing your job but costing the institution too much money because you don't work fast enough. There needs to be a balance between management and employees. No union means no protection for good employees. We will never agree on this issue. We both have valid points and I will continue to come down on the side of need for unions. Good employees need protection. when management does its job and documents an employees infractions, the firing will be upheld and my union, anyway, would agree with it. I have seen it happen. These examples you site do happen and shouldn't.Unions don't reinstate people,the company does.A good union shouldn't back an employee who violates rules. A good union needs good people. Wall Street, Washington, misdirected philosophy of de-regulation, and personal greed all are responsible for the system being in need of some repair. It doesnt all need to be thrown out. Issue 3 is meaningless only designed to bring out more republicans to vote on issue 2. So--we will not agree on these things so thanks for the exchange of ideas. I appreciate your points. Have a good day...
Cynthea Sabolich October 24, 2011 at 03:26 PM
Joseph, thank you for your reasoned debate. I don't believe Issue 2 eliminates unions, or that we will slip and slide back into the days of child labor. I think the pendulum swung too far in one direction and this is a correction. I have stated before and will restate, I stand on the side of those who risk their lives, but they should be standing on the side of ME by understanding their unions have too much power and control over the purse strings while following the advice of George Meany (yes, his real name), who said, when asked what the unions really wanted, answered MORE. It isn't to protect and serve, it isn't to make sure lives are saved or grand daughters pulled from fires. It is always MORE. Unions don't EVER get rid of employees, no matter how bad they are. And when I talk to union members, they always admit there are those they have learned to carry the load for, or to desk jockey. Heck, in NY State, they have entire buildings where lousey teachers go and fill out the cross word puzzle at 6 figure incomes. And sadly, the system will turn around, retire them and hire them back. Joseph, I pray we can afford your choice the day after the election, when cities will really start reducing forces, you know, like the commercials portray, but it will be because they are being broken by seniority staffing and outlandish benefits. Bless you Joseph because I believe you are a real and good, but wrong, man.
Joseph Dittmer October 24, 2011 at 03:32 PM
I know who George Meany was. Those were the days when protection of employees was still struggling. But-thanks for your blessing. have a good day.
Victor Mooney October 24, 2011 at 03:43 PM
Cynthea: Take heart, eloquence doesn`t necessarily mean wisdom. Your remarks are dead center and are well received by all objective observers.--One point, Issue3 was initiated about 1 year before SB5 ---the folks who started the amendment drive against Obamacare had never heard of SB5, because it didn`t exist then. Keep in mind, we only want to make a very small tweak in the system, albeit , many more will probably become necessary, but the other side, are in bed with the Socialists, Communists, and others who believe that the complete destruction of the nest is required. God bless you for standing up.
Dave J October 24, 2011 at 04:15 PM
Victor - Grow up - no one in here is a socialist or communist! Do you really believe the suburban union fire departments want to see the whole world completely destructed? Quit being such a paranoid old fool. I don't blame you for being mad at the world - you had to live your whole life named "victor mooney" that cant be so good with the ladies! But get mad at your mom and dad - not at public employees.
Jake Racketch October 24, 2011 at 04:38 PM
"Small tweak"?! When Ohio House Speaker Batchelder and Gov. Kasich both staged the bogus 11th hour meeting to amend ("untweak"?) SB5 days before it was deadlined for the ballot and Batchelder had JUST remarked "I hate what is about to happen here. There's going to be the d*mndest mess anybody ever saw in terms of relationships between government and employees." Clearly, they recognized that the final version of the bill is NOT a "small tweak" to current practices and sought to amend the bill (again, DAYS before the deadline to have it on the ballot and MONTHS after refusal to budge and hear the thousands of protesters right outside their doors) once polls were released that showed it's likely failure in November. The admission by those that bullied the legislation through committee and the general assembly that SB5 is overreaching, is enough reason alone to vote it down.
Ed Kent October 24, 2011 at 04:40 PM
Cynthea wrote: ..."in NY State, they have entire buildings where lousey teachers go and fill out the cross word puzzle at 6 figure incomes. And sadly, the system will turn around, retire them and hire them back." My comment: This was also true in Washington DC. when Michelle Rhee was told, when she was trying to fire certain underperfoming educators, "you can't fire them per the union." Rhee said, "What do you do with them to get them away from the students". The answer, "We send them to the administration buildings." Rhee, with political backing at that time, was able to clean house, close down wasteful buildings and help the actual education of the students, this all to the chagrin of the unions. But, in 2010, the unions convinced the public to elect a different mayor and thus Rhee had to resign. We'll see if the programs will continue in that district and if student performances can continue to improve as long as the things she helped start continue. It's sad that certain groups can have so much power and convince so many to vote in a way that benefits those groups financially no matter the future costs. It's all about sustainability. No, we can't just tax more to provide even more services. At some point it becomes unsustainable and people lose jobs no matter if it's in the private or public sector. The public sector continued to grow in the last years while the private sector declined. Now, jobs will be lost with or without SB5 and unions will be unhappy either way.
Cynthea Sabolich October 24, 2011 at 04:50 PM
Jake, I don't know where you keep getting this quotes that make these men seem like demons, oh wait, that's right, right out of Saul Alinsky's Rules for Radicals. Just say anything, any thing to slander the other side, and it will stick in the minds of the gulible as fact. The Unions refused to come to the table when Strickland was Governor. That was why he commissioned a study to determine how to deal with the tsumani of debt coming due. It is always good election policy to spend and look like you are doing something but Ohio was hemorrhaging jobs, companies were moving out, and our brain trust, the youth, were going with them. It wasn't Wall Street that bankrupt us, it was people who made purchases beyond their means. I asked my son, when he was looking at rental property for an investment, Are you going to get a Varitable Rate Mortgage. He said, Mom - they VARY the rate. DUH. But those that wouldn't know how to change a light bulb without calling the landlord were buying with no money down. Let's be honest about where the problem started. And the banks were originally forced to make those suicidal terms because Sen. Dodd and Rep. Frank were squeezing them in the banking committees. It will be the public service employees who eventually suffer, when their promises made are found to be empty. If we make real committments, ones we can honor in the future, we all have a future to share. Mayors are looking to keep good employees but are stuck with the contracts!
Jake Racketch October 24, 2011 at 07:17 PM
Cynthea, I'm fairly certain we agree about a large part of what got us into this economic mess. I'm glad your son knows to avoid the predatory lending practices (that also helped us get into this mess) and is NOT one of those people who bought with variable rates & no money down. Let's hope there are now more people like your son, now that everyone's had a chance to learn from the disaster of the past few years. As for the quotes? I wouldn't quote anything if it weren't an actual statement. Batchelder's lament was in most any publication in Ohio in late August. I'm not trying to slander anyone, I'm trying to prove that he knew what a mess this was going to be. I believe this because I interpret the quote, given the context of being coupled with the "request" to sit down with union leaders a week before the ballot deadline (without the assembly even in session) and over six months after the bill's introduction, to indicate his (and their) regret at pushing SB5 through the general assembly. In fact, when asked if the bill might have gone too far, Batchelder ALSO said, “my sense would be that there were alternative ways to do it," and if he was willing to call members back in session to repeal the vote, "whatever we have to do to get it done."
Jake Racketch October 24, 2011 at 07:26 PM
Among many other places, those quotes above can be found here: http://www.news-herald.com/articles/2011/08/18/news/doc4e4c20017f73a575628240.txt?viewmode=3 http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/aug/17/ohio-governor-offers-to-compromise-on-bargaining-l/?page=all
Jake Racketch October 24, 2011 at 07:45 PM
Also, if you feel I'm still using slander here in regard to my suggestion that they "pushed" SB5 through the legislature, I feel I can back that by recalling the fact that SB5 was not projected to even make it out of committee in the Ohio House, until Kasich's executive removal of two known opponents to the bill. Negotiations and votes on the bill were done exclusively along party lines, despite constituents' demonstrations and protests outside chamber doors for the duration of the hearings. This, in my opinion, is no way to pass a bill that directly impacts as many as SB5 does. At 2:50 in the following video, Batchelder even admits, when asked if there are points within in the bill that his "side" could have wiggle-room with, that there are. Where was this wiggle room during the months of getting the bill passed and why be so desperate a week before the ballot deadline to remove said parts? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saYm-DGMfjs What kind of governor says "we need to break the backs of organized labor in the schools," as reported by the Star Beacon in Ashtabula? The labor that educates Ohio's children and remains organized to fight for optimal learning environments for Ohio's children? Remember people-- a teacher's working conditions are your child's learning conditions. http://starbeacon.com/local/x343701395/Kasich-promises-county-won-t-be-forgotten-if-Republicans-regain-control/print
Cynthea Sabolich October 25, 2011 at 11:59 AM
I am not going to be a Kasich apologist. When the President of the United States, his VP, the Senate Majority Leader, the House Minority Leader are all using rhetorc that is over the top, then it is time to stop listening to all the words and start listening to reality. Regardless of how we got here, we need to think about that reality, that the Ponzi scheme has gotten to the end. Those who were able to enjoy the fruits and live and die inside a bubble, God bless them. They didn't know they were stealing from the future, from TODAY. You know when they kick the can down the road for someon else to deal with? Well, it is now us who are going to end up paying that piper. I read all the moaning and groaning about how horrible it will be but the same things were said in Wisconsin. Thank you Ohio for not being the over the top nut jobs they were in Wisconsin. Some poor soul committed suicide when that law was upheld, only to find out the health care increases were less than the union dues! People want to pretend that all the DEMOCRAT big city mayors are out to rob and rape the firemen and police. Really? Major Jackson in Cleveland is going to unfairly find some of the best workers and canning them just for spite? Because that is exactly what you are saying. Or is it only the R's who want to cause rape? We are getting raped - financially. And it is time to stop. Vote Yes. Stop the union chokehold on our cities.
Victor Mooney October 25, 2011 at 01:11 PM
Cynthea: I love you----if I weren`t 70 years old and STUCK in this 50 year marriage----I would ask--oh well, just let me say---you got a head on your shoulders girl, and --God Bless You!!
James Thomas October 25, 2011 at 04:57 PM
Victor, get behind me in line.
Ken Palosi October 26, 2011 at 01:05 PM
For anyone who is really interested in what is exactly in Senate Bill 5 the full text is being published in today's newspapers. Get a copy and read it.
Jake Racketch October 26, 2011 at 03:38 PM
Because of her eloquence in the use of the word "rape"? To each his own. What one person finds appealing, another finds embarrassing and disgusting. http://stow.patch.com/articles/inappropriate-topic-trending-on-twitter-about-school-rivalry As for Cynthea, I'm pretty sure you are ignoring my references for quotes that you had a problem with before, but choose to respond instead by resorting to the common rant that I'm pretty sure most of us already realize and understand--that the economic setup of the last few decades can not sustain us at its current state. That, however, was not the topic at hand. Then again, I'm not sure if Cynthea's responding to me or not because I didn't refer to anything about Mayor Jackson (much less any other mayor), despite her claim that "that is exactly what" I am saying. I also would've chosen different verbiage in the last few statements, but again, to each their own I guess!
Cynthea Sabolich October 26, 2011 at 03:52 PM
Jack, Use of the word rape is not something that any woman takes lightly, which is why I used it in the same post as the rhetoric being used by Mr. Obama, Mr. Biden, Mr. Reid, and Mrs. Pelosi. They say if we don't give them another half trillion dollars, the GOP is encouraging and supporting literal rape and "guns to the heads of shop owners". It was in response to the selective postings of what some say Gov. Kasich said about breaking unions, which I still wonder about both context and intent, and how SB5 got signed into law. This discussion started with SB5 and Confessions of a Retired Employee but it about the Yes or No vote on the ballot for Issue 2. Nothing can match the imagery or blantant deception from the ads we see or hear every day. Our hospitals will have no one in the ER to treat us? Rubbish, because if you look at the posted comments, it says the State of Ohio can't compete with the Cleveland Clinic on the level of professional hired. Well, pardon me but NO S^^T SHERLOCK. Facilities for the poor and disadvantaged should be adequate, and clean, and have legal staff levels but in the open market, people are going to pay for the upgrades. Fireman won't be there? Police won't be there? When they get LAID OFF because there is NO MONEY then they really won't be there. That is the rhetoric that needs to be addressed. Not me repeating Joe Biden's hysteria. I am going to make sure I find every safety force reduction and send it to that useful idiot woman.
Robin Anderson October 26, 2011 at 06:16 PM
Eloquent, JR? Naw. That's some bad hat, Harry.


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