Thank you so much for commenting about the issue with facts and grace. I too have been trying to understand SB5 and everything I have read seems to fall back to finger-pointing and exaggeration. All I want is some facts to make an educated decision!

Thanks Kristina.

Outstanding article. No partisan bs here, just calm facts. Thank you

Thanks for the perspective!

Thank you so very much, Mr. Palosi, for so rationally stating your knowledge and perspective on SB5, without name calling. I hope everyone reads this.

I appreciate the information and attempt to sort through the argument. I am still undecided on this issue. Neither public nor private citizens of our country have themselves created the current economic situation, but should not all of us have to make some sacrifices for the benefit of society? I am a veteran and former state employee and I am leaning towards yes.

Ken - Excellent commentary on a most perplexing issue. I've wanted to post my thoughts on this issue so many times in the Rep, but the context and tone of the comments already posted are so virulent and extreme on both sides that I fear it would be an exercise in futility.

I don't Believe this "Palosi" for one minute. This sounds like a union thug dressed in sheeps clothing trying to get US tax payers to "re-consider" OUR decision. It should have been obvious when we learned he earned his living off our backs as a government employee. The simple fact Mr. Palosi is that the the tax payers cant afford to support the lavish lifestyles these government workers enjoy anymore. If all these government jobs were re-distributed in the private sector - they would have some value to them. Government does not create wealth. I appreciate you trying to keep the insults to a minimum - but the truth is Ohio needs Issue 2 and Issue 3 to pass - or our grandchildren will never live in a debt-free america and be able to live the American dream as we have

Vote Yes on Issue 2

I hope the people out there voting understand that you already voted – for your Mayor, for your council person, for your city services, for your taxes and levies. A Yes vote on Issue 2 will keep the people you voted for in charge, and not some union boss. Do you believe your mayor wants to let your grandchild burn up in a fire? What lies and hysteria the unions are selling. Are you really that gullible? Look at your pay stub, you see that RITA deduction, that city income tax? That pays for those services. We get to elect the people who will keep that number manageable with sanity and responsibility. Right now we are in crisis. Right now, we are being blackmailed to give some union bosses advantages that, if you read about it this newspaper, would shock and anger you. The final question is, should you and your elected representatives decide what is affordable and/or reasonable and sane, or should the unions continue to bankrupt Ohio ? Vote YES for yourself and your community. Vote NO and you get more layoffs and less services because promises are made that we just can’t keep. I love my local police and fire departments. I'm voting YES in November to pass their renewal in Westlake. I'm also voting YES in November to keep my elected officials doing what we need them to do. Keep us safe at levels we decide we can afford.

I want apologize to Mr Palosi - I knew it would only be a matter of time before someone took the chance to turn your well written article into another SB5 fight. I apologize on behalf of everyone who will certainly post their insults here, and in my opinion deface your excellent article. I wish Cindy and Karen would keep their tea party propaganda on another articles replies. It's just a shame that someone like Mr Palosi can't offer an educated, calm and accurate analysis of the issue for people to read and appreciate.

Just for the sake of full discosure, I am the Union president of a local area fire department, and I think Mr. Palosi wrote the only reasonable article relating to the issue & want to thank him for his passion to read the entire senate bill. It takes some effort and is an indication of your interest to get to the truth and make a good decision at the polls.

Thank You again for keeping the debate on this issue professional and respectful.

I would agree with Dave (to a point). This was a well written and very informative article but name calling is not needed. I support SB5. I do not belong to the tea party and I would never disparage anyone because of their beliefs or political affiliations. Well written article Mr. Palosi but I am not convinced we should vote this down.

I apologize Chris, this is exactly what I did not want to happen to this mans article. I never intended to insult Ms. Sabolich or Stevenson. If I did, I apologize to them. I wanted to ensure they did not insult the opinion of an insightful author on this forum and turn it into the typical partisan bashing we've all grown tired of on this publication. Ms. Sabolich is a member of the Westlake tea party and I meant no disrespect for her affiliation or views. I didn't think of it as name calling at all. But in re-reading my post I should not have used the word propaganda. That was not fair. I understand that people on both sides of this issue have made a mess of it, and my use of that word doesn't help the issue.

My thanks to all for their comments. I said before that I wrote this article because of the name calling involved in this debate. As for being a "union thug" if one could read my article without letting themselves get caught up in their emotions they would see my statement where I said "I am not a fan of unions: They never really did anything for me except pocket my union dues." Perhaps those caught up in their anger and want to vent might read my article about handling exteme stress. http://northcanton.patch.com/blog_posts/overcoming-great-times-of-stress-through-mindfulness .

No apologies necessary.....BOTH sides have done their fair share in disparaging one another. Our weak economic times are causing people to become angry and bitter. After reading the article I went back and looked at the bill......there are areas that need "improvement" to say the least.....thanks to you and Ken, I will keep an open mind and continue my research!

I see my comments were marked 'delete' so I don't know if anyone read them or not, except that I was called Tea Party, as if I should run from that label. I would ask that anyone who wishes to address the issues I spoke to, that we give our votes to our elected officials only and we charge them with deciding what is right and affordable for our communities, that Central Falls RI and Pritchard Alabama stopped paying for their retired safety members because they made promises they couldn't keep, that when we decide to increase or decrease our RITA taxes by vote, it is our choice, and not the choice of an unknown, unelected arbitrator, or layering on of benefits and protections even the safety forces recognize as excessive,
As to my label of being a member of a group of serious adults who want to bring a cynical and critical eye to how our government uses our money..., who among us is saying that is a bad idea? Is it a bad idea to look inside the departments and see if there aren't minor adjustments, like asking if they can contribute to their pensions and/or health insurance plans? I pay 100% of my own plan because I am a small business person and when sales went down, I adjusted my plan to have a $5000 deductible. Who it be excessive to ask the same of those who serve me? I never used the word 'thug' and if union boss brings that emotion out, well, it might be based in historical events. I appreciate the article but I see that they have room for Comments, so I did.

"an indignant looking Kasich says in a rather harsh voice something to the effect that public employees should be required to pay 10 percent toward their retirement. I am not sure if I am missing something here or not, but maybe his writers should do a little fact checking since nearly all public employees are paying 10 percent or more"
You are missing something. In many places the unions have negotiated that both sides of the retirement contribution be paid by the city. Not all places, and usually not in all urban places where the safety forces might be under paid and over worked. But in some places, cities are "picking up" the employer contribution and the employee contribution, and in Strongsville, that equalled $5 million per year. An angry Kasich, in an indignant voice? He was mild and pleading that we see reasonable adjustments can make the difference when we are drowning in debt. We all need to contribute. I pay more in taxes, even when my income is down and my house value has fallen. I love my police and fire but please, there is a better way to manage and is through talking to each other - again. So I hope anyone who bothers to read the comments sees that there is another side than just this one mans opinion. We should give back control to our elected officials, and to ourselves.

Cindy you bring up an excellent point against Ohio Issue 2 - In some cities, where employees are underpaid regardless of workloads, our elected officials have negotiated a pension pickup in order to compensate for lower wages. It's a distinct advantage to any city to offer a pension pickup instead of a wage increase because it doesn't effect overtime hourly rates, it doesn't require an additional percentage contribution from the employee or employer to the pension, and it doesn't allow future percentage increases on wages to be further increased. So since so many elected officials promised this to employees instead of wages and it saved money for the cities at that time - now they will no longer have that tool to use.

Perhaps the saddest part is the firefighters and police that you claim to love so much didn't get a wage increase and now didn't get what the politicians you also love so much promised them. Looks like they are the ones holding the bag. Specially since they pay taxes just like you do.

In addition, if you love your fire department so much - why don't you trust their word when they tell you that senate bill 5 is bad. How can you support them by approving the levy in westlake, but not trust them to be honest about how bad this bill is?

I didn't want to pick on your tea party ideals - but with all due respect they seem a little confusing to me?

Also your post is confusing

you said" A Yes vote on Issue 2 will keep the people you voted for in charge, and not some union boss"

If we keep the people we voted for in charge & they elected to use the pension pickup tool instead of wage increases. Now by voting yes on issue 2, we are in fact, telling them they are no longer in charge and we don't like the decisions they made.

If local elected politicians favor pension pickups how is a YES vote on issue two not a slap in their elected faces?

VOTE NO ON ISSUE BECAUSE IT DOES NOT MAKE SENSE.

Ken - thanks for the great article.

As far as Cindy Sabolich goes - look out she is a nutjob. I know her personally and she and her crazy husband need to see a therapist. Here's and example:

She talks on this blog about how much she loves her police and fire, and how she will vote yes on their levy they need to keep 8 of them employed.

She also says to vote yes on Issue 2 so our elected government officials can keep doing the job we elected them for.

Sounds pretty reasonable on the surface, but follow the link posted below where she is pictured at the capital building holding a sign that says "stop the spending now" and Im to believe she will vote yes on any levy?

As far as how she feels about the government here's a quote from her introduction statement "I know there are people out there who see their life work strangled by too much government. Those are the people I want to spent time with"

I have known her for over 10 years and the way she talks about safety services in westlake you would have thought they killed her family. The truth is she hates unions so much because her business voted to unionize and she was required to sit down and "talk" to her employees about the poverty level wages she pays them to support their families

Take her advice with a grain of salt & everybody else just research the issue and vote the for what you think is right - as every American should

Here's the Link - sorry I forgot to post

http://www.meetup.com/Westshore-Tea-Party/members/9090201/

30 TV stations remove pro Issue 2 Ad because it was deceiving.

Looks like 30 tv stations agree that the pro Issue 2 camp has been deceiving with their ads.

John Kasich says that his office has nothing to do with the bogus ad, however he did not mention that his Chief of staff took a leave of absence to work at building a better ohio, the author of the bogus ad.

here's a link

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/10/13/1025999/-Republican-group-pulls-deceptive-ad-on-Ohios-Issue-2,-but-continues-to-defendit

What a liar Matt Clark is. I pay my employees low wages? You betcha. My only employee is me because my small business is a me and my retired husband. You have known me for over 10 years? Where and how? Before Sept. of 2008, we were keeping to ourselves and yelling at the TV because BUSH was spending too much.
Wanting good and responsible government is not crazy. Wanting to renew a charter issue in my city that I actually read and agree with is not contrary to my belief that the citizens should be responsible and engaged and make informed decisions.
Was that ad a very very stupid and dishonest thing? YES. I can say that because I am on the side of reason and truth. Sometimes the truth falls in grey areas where there is no perfect one size fits all solution. We were and will be $8 BILLION dollars in debt in Ohio. SB5 helps bring some balance and some relief and some control that will keep our cities from having to lay off many while the top keep getting more and more. Where in the private sector can a blue collar, or even a nurse, walk out on the last day and have hundreds of days accumulated of pay that they earned decades ago? It damages communities.
You can sneer that I am a citizen who wants good schools and good services, and that I do appreciate what our police and fire departments do. How does that mean that they should have an unfair advantage at the bargaining table?

I never met Matt Clark, not now, not 10 years ago. I believe in stopping insane spending, like giving money to corporations, and then giving money to create an underclass, and then creating so many rules that businesses need to have back door employees off the books.
I do believe SB5 should be enacted because the things that are wrong with it can be tweaked. People do not realize this but it is just an extension of study done under Strickland's term. There was no way we could continue to have unchecked debt.
If Matt Clark has known me all these years, let him say when, where, and how. Member of my garden club? Play hearts? Part of my family? Not hardly. This more than any one things shows me that he is part of the Daily Kos kooks and probably is wearing a tin foil hat.

The whole point of Mr. Palosi's blog post was to have an intelligent post about what he has, himself, experienced in his working lifetime without the ridiculous name calling that has gone on with every other article. I've seen him called a thug and I've seen other posters essentially call each other nutcases. If you can't say something nice or, more importantly, intelligent, then don't post.

It sounds like Cynthea is really confused about the issue. It is much bigger than your interpretation. There are no "Union Bosses" demanded things. We are not thugs! Just working class people who PAY taxes and want to do our part for our communities. And yes, we would like to be able to discuss and negotiate for our working conditions and pay. Most of the time we can do so as adults. Occasionally, we get a one side that is not so reasonable and when that happens the state employee relations board sends in a neutral third party to weigh the evidence on both sides and make a determination. Those are the facts! Now issue 2 will make this a one sided process. You say why should they have an unfair advantage? They don't, but politicians will with SB5. We elect our politicians and expect them to do a good job or we vote them out, but they can do a lot of damage before that takes place. Look at our governor for a perfect example. Politicians do not know anything about class sizes and learning tools, about protecting our neighborhoods, or fighting fires. There are a lot of working folks who make less but if you think they have lavish lifestyles then your business must not be doing very well. Don't blame them for your business failures. Maybe you should give it up and get a real job like the rest of us.

So, let me see if I understand. The problem isn't that our cities are drowning in debt from promises made they can't keep, because everything is hunky dorey. Everything is just swell. We can keep on doing what we are doing and not face any consequences. The evil Kasich is the problem. That Cynthea doesn't know beans. So if we get rid of SB5, it will all just go away and then, when we read about how we have to take out bonds to pay the accumulated days off of a few, saved over decades at a low rate but paid out at the maximum, that will be okay.
Cynthea must be confused because, according to these folks, the city managers and the unions have been sitting down and getting fair agreements all along, except, oops, when they can't agree, the unions strike, they act out, they shut down services, and since Celeste, there is another party coming to the table, someone who does not know the community (or care), or the desires of the tax payers, but will chose all of one list of demands over the other and it is BINDING. So it isn't enough for the unions to have the collective bargaining, they also need 2 hammers. And that would be great if they were working toward our safety, NOT.
I believe the service forces should be partners in both good times and bad. I alter my habits, and the way I do business, according to economic realities. I just think we should ask those who work for us to do the same, Attacking me won't balance your budgets, but good luck with that. Adios.

Debate is good, but I want to remind everyone to refrain from personal attacks of the author or your fellow commenters. Here are our terms of use: http://brecksville.patch.com/terms

Here is a video that explains why voters should vote no on Issue 2. It shows a city council in Xenia Ohio making some horrible decisions that could kill someone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CZYndT73qc&feature=related

The law will need adjustments, but vote 'yes' on state Issue 2 to break Ohio away from an unsustainable status quo: The Plain Dealer Editorial Board

Because of that, this editorial board -- after much soul-searching and vigorous discussion -- has decided to endorse the passage of Issue 2.
Imperfect though it may be, Issue 2 will give local governments and school districts more tools to control labor costs and protect taxpayers. It requires public employees to make the same kind of contributions toward their health and pension benefits that most private-sector workers do. It ends state-mandated wage step-ups, requires performance-based pay and permits layoffs based on more than seniority. Those factors are especially important to school districts such as Cleveland that need to transform themselves in the face of outmoded state rules that force them to toss aside newer -- and perhaps better -- teachers when money is tight.
Issue 2 also would revamp the current system of binding arbitration. Envisioned as a way to resolve deadlocks without strikes, such arbitration in practice can short-circuit bargaining because neither side has to put its real bottom line on the table and instead can roll the dice with an arbitrator who must pick between competing proposals. Mayors, including Akron's Don Plusquellic -- a Democrat who opposes Issue 2 -- have complained bitterly for years that arbitrators need not consider a city's finances in making their decisions. That has to change.

Cynthea, the reason people get upset with you is because of your decisions and comments. I will never support a law that a proponent admits needs adjustments? That is disgusting. Time for modification is now, the legislators do not need any one's help to fix this law, make the adjustments now!

Would you support a bad tax levy - if the people promoting it said they will fix the bad stuff after passage? I would not!

Have you ever been to an arbitration hearing? Arbitrators have the responsibility to determine if a city has the ability to pay. They are forbidden by the rules of their association to award any gains a city cant pay for - how is that not fair? Also, how is it not a lie or confusion that you said it was not the case?

Please educate yourself on this issue before you try to convince others to support it! It is mostly based on lies.

IF A LAW NEEDS ADJUSTMENTS AFTER PASSAGE IT IS A BAD LAW.

VOTE NO ON ISSUE 2 - ITS BROKEN

The Cleveland Pain Dealer endorses Issue 2 to save SB5 in order to break Ohio away from an unsustainable status quo:
http://www.cleveland.com/opinion/index.ssf/2011/10/the_law_will_need_adjustments.html
This is the same paper that endorsed many Democratic agendas. This shows it isn't as much of a party issue as it is about changing the whole political status quo that has had this state in a rut for so long. I look forward to teachers being rewarded for how they're teaching instead of longevity. That is the best for students.

I show you that a left leaning major news paper the Plain Dealer, after much thought, supports Issue 2. My understanding is all legitimate news outlets will do the same this week.
I went to Columbus before SB5 was voted on, listened to hours of testimony. I talked to my State Senator and State Rep. There was a deep discussion within the members of the Tea Party in Ohio about the pros and cons of this and how it was introduced. I went to many town halls and debates. As a citizen, I might be more active than most, and I plan to continue to be more active. I will listen and judge based on more than just this one guys experience and some emotional and deceiving TV ads.
I can tell you that the Ohio Tea parties already are demanding that our shared government do what it needs to do to make sure the flaws are fixed. So far the union leaders have refused to come to the table because they believe they will win. I hope and pray they come to the table if they lose because we need to have real laws to make sure we get good government.
When there is no money, the Mayors lay off service employees but the real flaws don't get fixed. Those flaws have become cancers on our city budgets and we need to make some painful changes so we can become healthy.
I can tell you that if they repeal Issue 2, it will be the rank and file who lose the most, not me because I will continue to be a good citizen and will pay my taxes. And yes, love my safety forces and vote FOR them when I can.

One thing I have to interject here is this- I see many public employee's here and on other sites making the statement that "we have better benefits to make up for the wage freeze we took", or similar statements. There is no savings to the tax payer when you offset a wage freeze with increased benefit's cost. In our district for instance, the union took a "wage freeze" but offset it with a 2% "bonus" each year. And yes, the board agreed. This is why Issue 2 is important for taxpayers. Whether it's the "union thug" or the "evil politician" negotiating against us, SB 5 at least puts benefits at a somewhat sustainable level. Our school district would have saved at least $1.5 million dollars, just this year, had SB 5 gone into effect before a new contract was signed. Have you asked yourselves why there was a record number of negotiated agreements signed this year?

Thanks Cynthea, your comments are well received.

Emotion is a god thing , but it shouldn`t be the only thing. I believe that if you inform yourself and make a thoughtful analysis of this situation, you must support Issue 2[SB5] . Not because it`s perfect: God didn`t write it, but because it is a step in the right direction. No one believes that the Unions or the teachers and Public employees will suddenly make some concessions on their own. They aren`t perfect either. But there is no money, and their pension payments and health care benefits are a problem. To argue that most pay a fair share toward these benefits is disengenious, or naive, the facts say otherwise. Most pay nothing toward their healtcare and many pay nothing toward their retirement. This must end. Issue 2[SB5]will require just that. Will that be the end--I think not---but the alternative is bleak.

Issue 2[SB5] will begin the long road back for a positive future for Ohio.

Please check the news, the changes in school systems of Wisconsin are already showing tremendous savings and with no reductions in benefits. The same is needed here.

I will be voting YES on Issue2[SB5]

Another major newspaper just endorsed issue 2 - the Columbus Dispatch. Yet, another blow to the union power elite that have been spending huge amounts of money on their anti-issue 2 campaign. This is surprising some people because newspapers are usually for spending programs and more liberal causes. This shows that this issue isn't Democrat, Republican, liberal or conservative. This seems to be about financial sustainability, and correcting the status quo that both parties helped create.

In Rocky River and Westlake, we looked at each teacher and job and discovered that the maximum pay is $100,000 in K-4! NOT the advance calculus class or AP Phyics, which was only averaged $66,000. And of the 30+ teachers making that, 5 of them had retired and returned, meaning they were getting paid 2/3rds pay as retirees and full pay at $100,000.
Yet the school boards acts as if it is personal to look hard at whether or not we should be paying for the job and the student or for the teacher.
A Human Resource person in private business would be looking at the job. It was teachers at the State Board that created the degree = pay increase and mandatory degrees (which have been eliminated now). Why should our 4th grade teachers have 3 masters degrees in things that don't have anything to do with their learning curves?
We need reform. If the unions and others care about us as much as they claim, they would be demanding that we look at the waste, help us root out the bad employees that are suckers on the system, and figure out how we can make this work for everyone. Sadly, I was at the City Club in Cleveland today and the rhetoric from the unions was more of the same. In fact, they want to blame everyone - Kasich, Wall Street (which is where they have their retirement funds), and Crony's when Kasich hasn't been in office long enough to drive up $8 billion in debt. So who did? EVERYONE. Include both parties. Now is the time to fix it. Vote Yes

Harry, you need to get a life---

Ken: an hour? --try 100 hrs or maybe 500---who cares if the Dispatch endorses or not---read, research, and make up your own mind---

Cynthea: go Girl---you are finding out the truth--keep at it---

Turn over enough rocks and pretty soon you can judge for yourself who is telling to truth---

"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter."....MLK

@ Kellie Patterson. Thanks for the link Kellie. I was looking at articles and not editorials. I appreciate the help.

Robin, I recently discovered that the school board is charged only with approving the contract negotiated by the Superintendent and 3 of our school principles. Of course those guys are part of the fabric of the teaching system. They don't come, hat in hand, to the school board with their requests. The Superintendent works out all the details based on the amount of money and the teachers/union requests. The BOE ends up only giving a thumbs up or thumbs down to the final contract - which they don't even read! That was another shocker. They 'trust' the principles, the union rep, and the superintendent to write the contract, and in many cases, some of them are the same, so we have no one on the side of the table to represent the tax payers until we get to the ballot box saying - cut your programs or lay off teacher or have 40 students per class or agree to this levy. That is a bad way to do business.
We are just at the beginning of finding critical thinkers who can replace the BOE members but when the students are registering to vote at 17 1/2 and they have been marinated in the teacher propaganda ( please people, my grandsons tell me that the teachers have had on NO ON SB5/ISSUE 2 t-shirts since Sept. and wear them to class every day), and they are getting the emotional verbage sent home with the homework, then it gets hard to convince the parents that they are not doing their own due diligence.

Rob- If I could answer your question I'd still be on the board!! Cynthea- I did read every contract presented to me. I also voted no on each of them, mainly because of unsustainable benefit packages. But overall you're right. Most board members are rubber stamps that don't take the time to review what they are signing.

If teachers are promoting a position on any issue inside the classroom to our children, that is called indoctrination and should not be tolerated. If I was a student and saw a teacher wearing any shirt promoting a voting issue (for or against), I'd be tempted to walk out of the classroom go straight to administration and give them the opportunity to correct this propaganda in the public school system. Then, if that didn't work I'd go to the media and tell them what's going on. There are many reporters, even if they're sympathetic to an issue, who would be glad to do the story especially when it involves caring students who want to speak out about indoctrination in our public schools. Can anyone in Stow or Munroe Falls check with their children who attend public school to see if any teacher is promoting their own agendas or issues that are to be voted on? Free speech is allowed in this country, but not necessarily in all cases within the classroom. Some things are deemed unlawful and/or indoctrination.

Cindy - what are you saying here?
"The BOE ends up only giving a thumbs up or thumbs down to the final contract - which they don't even read! That was another shocker. They 'trust' the principles, the union rep, and the superintendent to write the contract, and in many cases, some of them are the same, so we have no one on the side of the table to represent the tax payers until we get to the ballot box saying - cut your programs or lay off teacher or have 40 students per class or agree to this levy. That is a bad way to do business. "

You have no on the side of the table to represent tax payers? What about the board members that didn't read the contract? Sounds like you got your bad apples right there, if what you said is true. then don't elect them next time.

If I gave you one of my several examples of small businesses ripping people off - then made the assumption that all small businesses were bad, therefore we should make a new law restricting what they do - would that be fair to you? I can name a lot of small businesses that are ripoffs. Since I am a teacher and earning my living off of your back, then the bad small business technically are stealing your tax dollars.

WE NEED SMALL BUSINESS REFORM NOW!

I was told that Gov. Kasich received a stack of "letters" done in crayon by a 3rd Grade class in Columbus, all asking Dear Govenor, Why are you taking away my teacher. She is nice and we love her.
If you challenge it, the left becomes outraged that it is Freedom of Speech, but they fail to see it is abuse of power.
As to the millions spent on wars and foreign aid - I AGREE. If we had the $500 million Pres. Obama spent on a failing business owned by his donor, or the one not in the news -yet, the $1.2 Billion dollars on another solar panel/wind mill company going belly up, for the Trillion dollar stimulus plan that didn't fix our power grid, we'd not be worried about our public employees.
We have massive debt in our systems. Without folks like Kelly who read the contracts, we would probably have even more.
Sadly, I get alot of heat but it isn't me that will suffer. It will be the people who try to retire in 15 years after being told to be good union members. The money wll be gone, and the goose eaten so no more golden eggs.
Although I don't believe the public employees are buying yachets, they are buying jet ski's and granite counters and taking cruises. Which is great when the businesses and families who pay for them have the money. When our Obama economy is a red line straight down, we all have to rethink the way we do business.

10% Pension... 15% Healthcare... "C'mon MAAAAN!"

If any of you are 60+ KSU will let you take economics classes for FREE!

Here is a fact. Not somebody recalling they heard something, somehwere. "Meanwhile, recent federal statistics show the compensation gap between public and private workers is narrow. Wages and benefits for public workers cost $40.40 per hour in June, according to statistics the U.S. Department of Labor's Bureau of Labor Statistics released in September. At the same time, total compensation for private-sector workers at a company with 500 workers or more was $40.68, according to the bureau.

William: you must be related to Barbra Striesand---arguing that wages and benefits of public sector employees in Ohio are close to those in the private sector--is disengenious ---in the age of cyberspace , those kinds of arguments are from way out in left fiels---we all know better---"according to the bureau"---you are kikking , right!

Cynthea: I would like to meet you--your arguments are fact based and uncommomly accurate--it`s obvious you are doing your homework---unlike those teachers--who have and are trying to indoctrinate your grandkids---[if anyone wants, I can provide the instruction manual from the teachers unions to the teachers, encouraging indoctrination in the classroom]

Cynthea: just in case you haven`t seen the article from the Dispatch---here`s a link---State Issue 2
Source: dispatch.com

As outlined in an August editorial, The Dispatch would have preferred a compromise on collective-bargaining issues that would have taken State Issue 2 off the ballot and revised Senate Bill 5. That didn’t happen, but because several of the provisions of Senate Bill 5 are essential to the fiscal health of state and local governments in Ohio, The Dispatch recommends a yes vote on State Issue 2.

http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/editorials/2011/10/17/state-issue-2.html

The above Columbus Dispatch article is spot -on and should be required reading for all Ohio voters---

Victor it is a fact. Look up the report in the US dept of Labor September report.

Mr. Anderson: You would make a great snake oil salesman. First, you didn`t mention the cost of your benefits, [which, by the way, is the subject of this discourse],. Second, the private sector must pay for transport, provide their own tools, pay their own insurance, etc, etc, etc. Third: they are only paid while working, not full time, coffee breaks and all, as you are. Fourth, besides, if you weren`t cheaper, why would the KS keep you, Oh yea, I forgot, Unions. I don`t know why I waist my time on arguments like this. Once again, you`ve shown up at a gun fight with a teaspoon!

Mr Anderson: You are still flailing away with the spoon! why don`t you write your memoirs up in book form and then we can all decide whether to buy---right now we are looking for ways to stop the decline and fall of our state---please offer alternative solutions----your expertise as a hard working union employee at KSU has been well documented---the pendulum is swinging back---the unions have gone too far---their future will depend on sharing a much smaller pie---the taxpayer is no longer willing or able to support your supposed "middle class" lifestyle. Issue 2[SB5] will pass because most voters will realize it`s importance, many "Union" members will see it`s future, as beneficial, even to them, especially to them, I have heard no solutions, only the wailing of a piglets who cannot get more milk from the teat. The sow is dead. We have failed to give her enough to eat or drink for too long. The taxpayers have no more to give.---I will vote for Issue2[SB5] because I can see no other way----THE ALTERNATIVE IS BLEAK!.---

Another left wing group steps up to the plate---Yesterdays Plain Dealer column by Kevin O`Brien is well worth your time. Sensible analysis, factual reporting isn`t dead---folks are realizing the gravity of the situation---a bankrupt Ohio will not pay any healthcare or pensions-----Vote YES on Issue2[SB5]

Equation of the day:
Ohio = Greece if Issue 2 = No

Will you guys quit arguing over issue 2? Its simple if you hate your fire and police and think they make too much vote yes

If you like your fire and police and think their wages are fair vote no

If you think you are helping them keep jobs by voting yes you are wrong. Why would firefighters oppose a bill that would save their jobs?

If you want to help your fire and police trust them when they ask you to vote no.

No Ed its more like mom tells her child that they cant afford health insurance because they have to give a tax incentive to the store owner or he will stop creating jobs in our country. How can you say with a straight face that we're so broke wwe cant sustain our public safety employees, but notnso broke to give out tax breaks that would otherwise pay for the employees.

Duane: Please don`t analyze me,[you could look it up, it`s called a dictionary]---I haven`t spoken about your views or your politics---I simply state the facts as I know them----Nothing which I have offered for your perusal has come from anwhere but me. don`t insult me with stories about 5 day weeks and vacations and health care---I was a union man before you were born[not talking about age here], and a lot happened before both of us. What I do know is this, I was there when the busloads of teachers and state employees showed up in Columbus, [I guess they were on their vacation], I watched the demonstrations in Wisconsin, and I am watching the "BS" in New York, with the UAW, Seiu, Afscme, signs and the support of the Communists, Socialists, etc---Your info is left wing playbook, right down the line. If that`s your tune, play it, but I think thee whistles in the dark, the boogy man is coming, ---thank you for your kind attention!

donate - www.buildtheborderfence.com

@Joseph Dittmer. Thanks for the compliment and the additional perspective. I too have been studying the bill and one provision that I am concerned about as a voter and citizen of Ohio is the apparent carte blanche that S.B. 5 will give all levels of government the right to privatize any and all service without any recourse by the unions or more importantly by the voters. I don't want to see a private security firm patrolling my streets or McDonalds providing school lunch for my grandchildren.

I reat Joseph Dittmer who is propogating a lie that "our hospitals need trained professional". What hospitals? Your local hospital is a non-profit. 99 % of all the hospitals in Ohio are already "private", including the Cleveland Clinic and University Hospitals. Many of them are from the Sisters of Charity. So if we privatize, let us hope it is in the same manner as these entities. I read hear about the very low pay of the University workers who are $16-20 dollars per hour to do all the needed deeds, and stating that their private sector counter parts are making $30 per hour. Then guess what, they would be stupid to stay in a job that under pays them.
Ted Kennedy loved the unions too. He loved to make a strong National Labor Union Board. He loved all the alphabet soup of deductions and requirements, which most people never understand, the onerous additional costs to the employer, the matching funds or direct pays for unemployment benefits or employer mandated contributions. But when it came to taking money out of his own personal pocket, rich man that he was, he hired an illegal to mow his grass. And that is where we are headed. There will be no recovery in Ohio because no companies will come here. Those that are here will begin to move to South Carolina, or Kentucky. And we will begin to see how it worked out so well for Greece. When unsustainable meets no money, lay offs are the only outcome. Massive layoffs. And they protest to get them. DUH.

Cynthia--by 'our hospitals' I was referring to the Ohio Department of Mental Health. In case you are not aware of it, Ohio has 6 remaining state hospitals with approximately 1000 patients who suffer from serious mental illness. Many are sent by courts for treatment after being arrested for a crime because they were not mentally stable at time of the crime or became psychotic after the crime. These hospitals and clinics found in each of our prisons require trained professionals-physicians, nurse, psychologist, pharmacists to help ensure these people get treatment and do not get released only to again become psychotic with no sense of reality.. The calibre of these professionals somewhat depends on the quality of compensation available. If the state wants to remain in the 21st centruy in its treatment of citizens, then we cannot revert to the times when these facilities depended on unlicensed people to do these things.Yes-there were times in the 1960-70s when these hospitals had to employ unlicensed doctors to do the work because the pay and benefits were so bad no one else would work there. We do not want this to happen again. Such is history.
I don't know what your references to Ted Kennedy, right to work states where you have no rights,and Greece were about but you are lumping issues together which gets confusing here.

As a retired Registered Nurse, I can tell you that the State of Ohio, or our local counties, have standards set by the licensing boards of both the doctors, and the nurses, and within the ORC which would make it illegal to do as you suggest. I have worked for both union and non-union hospitals and it is the free market which determines pay in the private sector. Cleveland Clinic sets limits on the number of days that can be accumulated, and the top tier of pay and believe me, they are considered great employers. To believe that employers don't want employees to be partners to have a good outcome is as one sided as believing that the union bosses are looking out for the public interests. That is a giant HA. They care about getting more and more until there is nothing left to give. That is the place we are at now.
To say that you can buy caring personnel or have unlicensed doctors or unqualified staff is an insult to those currently employed in these places. I know them, and they will tell you they made their choice of employment, not because they were the bottom tier in their classes, or failed the exams to get their certification, but for a host of other reasons. You are saying the unions failed them again so SB5 won't change that.

Joseph, thank you. I think you are actually speaking to me and asking me why I don't get it. Sir, I worked in the operating room of a major hospital and I can tell you that world class surgeons only show up to make a few stitches or cuts and most of it is done by trained PA's who do it well, daily, and sometimes better than the figure head.
Why do I think it is skewed to have the employees be the boss? I see first hand the difference between the union shops and the places where the employers sets standards. At Metro, we all cheered the firing of a bad employee, only to have the union reinstate her 2 weeks later because there wasn't enough offical complaints in her file. So we all documented her behavior - her dangeous behavior at the OR table- only to have her sue the hospital, receive 2 years back pay, a settlement, and come back to work because she was 'targeted' by stuffing her file with real complaints. I've had nursing assistants sleep all night and tell me they're union protected them. Their job of monitoring urine samples from druggies was another revenue source for them - we had men test clean for drugs but positive for pregnancy! And they couldn't be fired. Not every teacher is Teacher of the Year, but under the current system, that person would get laid off while some dottering old bat keeps their top pay job.
The system is broken. The money was spent by Strickland, not Wall Street. Stop the hysteria and start the process of fixing. Vote YES on 2 &3.

Joseph, thank you for your reasoned debate. I don't believe Issue 2 eliminates unions, or that we will slip and slide back into the days of child labor. I think the pendulum swung too far in one direction and this is a correction. I have stated before and will restate, I stand on the side of those who risk their lives, but they should be standing on the side of ME by understanding their unions have too much power and control over the purse strings while following the advice of George Meany (yes, his real name), who said, when asked what the unions really wanted, answered MORE. It isn't to protect and serve, it isn't to make sure lives are saved or grand daughters pulled from fires. It is always MORE.
Unions don't EVER get rid of employees, no matter how bad they are. And when I talk to union members, they always admit there are those they have learned to carry the load for, or to desk jockey. Heck, in NY State, they have entire buildings where lousey teachers go and fill out the cross word puzzle at 6 figure incomes. And sadly, the system will turn around, retire them and hire them back.
Joseph, I pray we can afford your choice the day after the election, when cities will really start reducing forces, you know, like the commercials portray, but it will be because they are being broken by seniority staffing and outlandish benefits.
Bless you Joseph because I believe you are a real and good, but wrong, man.

I know who George Meany was. Those were the days when protection of employees was still struggling. But-thanks for your blessing. have a good day.

Cynthea: Take heart, eloquence doesn`t necessarily mean wisdom. Your remarks are dead center and are well received by all objective observers.--One point, Issue3 was initiated about 1 year before SB5 ---the folks who started the amendment drive against Obamacare had never heard of SB5, because it didn`t exist then. Keep in mind, we only want to make a very small tweak in the system, albeit , many more will probably become necessary, but the other side, are in bed with the Socialists, Communists, and others who believe that the complete destruction of the nest is required. God bless you for standing up.

Victor - Grow up - no one in here is a socialist or communist! Do you really believe the suburban union fire departments want to see the whole world completely destructed? Quit being such a paranoid old fool. I don't blame you for being mad at the world - you had to live your whole life named "victor mooney" that cant be so good with the ladies! But get mad at your mom and dad - not at public employees.

Jake, I don't know where you keep getting this quotes that make these men seem like demons, oh wait, that's right, right out of Saul Alinsky's Rules for Radicals. Just say anything, any thing to slander the other side, and it will stick in the minds of the gulible as fact.
The Unions refused to come to the table when Strickland was Governor. That was why he commissioned a study to determine how to deal with the tsumani of debt coming due. It is always good election policy to spend and look like you are doing something but Ohio was hemorrhaging jobs, companies were moving out, and our brain trust, the youth, were going with them. It wasn't Wall Street that bankrupt us, it was people who made purchases beyond their means.
I asked my son, when he was looking at rental property for an investment, Are you going to get a Varitable Rate Mortgage. He said, Mom - they VARY the rate. DUH. But those that wouldn't know how to change a light bulb without calling the landlord were buying with no money down. Let's be honest about where the problem started. And the banks were originally forced to make those suicidal terms because Sen. Dodd and Rep. Frank were squeezing them in the banking committees.
It will be the public service employees who eventually suffer, when their promises made are found to be empty. If we make real committments, ones we can honor in the future, we all have a future to share.
Mayors are looking to keep good employees but are stuck with the contracts!

Also, if you feel I'm still using slander here in regard to my suggestion that they "pushed" SB5 through the legislature, I feel I can back that by recalling the fact that SB5 was not projected to even make it out of committee in the Ohio House, until Kasich's executive removal of two known opponents to the bill. Negotiations and votes on the bill were done exclusively along party lines, despite constituents' demonstrations and protests outside chamber doors for the duration of the hearings. This, in my opinion, is no way to pass a bill that directly impacts as many as SB5 does.

At 2:50 in the following video, Batchelder even admits, when asked if there are points within in the bill that his "side" could have wiggle-room with, that there are. Where was this wiggle room during the months of getting the bill passed and why be so desperate a week before the ballot deadline to remove said parts?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saYm-DGMfjs

What kind of governor says "we need to break the backs of organized labor in the schools," as reported by the Star Beacon in Ashtabula? The labor that educates Ohio's children and remains organized to fight for optimal learning environments for Ohio's children? Remember people-- a teacher's working conditions are your child's learning conditions.
http://starbeacon.com/local/x343701395/Kasich-promises-county-won-t-be-forgotten-if-Republicans-regain-control/print

I am not going to be a Kasich apologist. When the President of the United States, his VP, the Senate Majority Leader, the House Minority Leader are all using rhetorc that is over the top, then it is time to stop listening to all the words and start listening to reality. Regardless of how we got here, we need to think about that reality, that the Ponzi scheme has gotten to the end. Those who were able to enjoy the fruits and live and die inside a bubble, God bless them. They didn't know they were stealing from the future, from TODAY. You know when they kick the can down the road for someon else to deal with? Well, it is now us who are going to end up paying that piper.
I read all the moaning and groaning about how horrible it will be but the same things were said in Wisconsin. Thank you Ohio for not being the over the top nut jobs they were in Wisconsin. Some poor soul committed suicide when that law was upheld, only to find out the health care increases were less than the union dues!
People want to pretend that all the DEMOCRAT big city mayors are out to rob and rape the firemen and police. Really? Major Jackson in Cleveland is going to unfairly find some of the best workers and canning them just for spite? Because that is exactly what you are saying. Or is it only the R's who want to cause rape? We are getting raped - financially. And it is time to stop. Vote Yes. Stop the union chokehold on our cities.

Cynthea: I love you----if I weren`t 70 years old and STUCK in this 50 year marriage----I would ask--oh well, just let me say---you got a head on your shoulders girl, and --God Bless You!!

For anyone who is really interested in what is exactly in Senate Bill 5 the full text is being published in today's newspapers. Get a copy and read it.

Jack, Use of the word rape is not something that any woman takes lightly, which is why I used it in the same post as the rhetoric being used by Mr. Obama, Mr. Biden, Mr. Reid, and Mrs. Pelosi. They say if we don't give them another half trillion dollars, the GOP is encouraging and supporting literal rape and "guns to the heads of shop owners". It was in response to the selective postings of what some say Gov. Kasich said about breaking unions, which I still wonder about both context and intent, and how SB5 got signed into law.
This discussion started with SB5 and Confessions of a Retired Employee but it about the Yes or No vote on the ballot for Issue 2.
Nothing can match the imagery or blantant deception from the ads we see or hear every day. Our hospitals will have no one in the ER to treat us? Rubbish, because if you look at the posted comments, it says the State of Ohio can't compete with the Cleveland Clinic on the level of professional hired. Well, pardon me but NO S^^T SHERLOCK. Facilities for the poor and disadvantaged should be adequate, and clean, and have legal staff levels but in the open market, people are going to pay for the upgrades. Fireman won't be there? Police won't be there? When they get LAID OFF because there is NO MONEY then they really won't be there. That is the rhetoric that needs to be addressed. Not me repeating Joe Biden's hysteria. I am going to make sure I find every safety force reduction and send it to that useful idiot woman.