RTA Driver is a Knockout on The Internet, But Was He Acting in Self Defense?
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“It’s never right to hit a girl,” my fourth grade teacher said as she dragged me to the principal’s office. Priscilla Gutierez had just gouged me with her fingernails because I would not get off the swing she wanted. Her nails were cutting deeply into my arm, and she had no intention of letting go, so I punched her, once, on the shoulder.
Priscilla had attacked me and her nails had left four bloody cuts on my arm. I wear the scars to this day. Nonetheless, under the gender rules of the 1950’s, there was no issue of self defense. I hit a girl; therefore, I was wrong.
The rules certainly have changed. When Shidea Lane got into a fight with RTA driver Artis Hughes, she may have assumed that he would not hit her because she was a woman, even when she attacked him and spit on him. She certainly did not expect Hughes to land a professional-grade uppercut to her jaw.
The cell phone videos of the incident have become an internet sensation. The response has been largely in favor of Hughes, with many viewers commenting that Lane got what she deserved. For it’s part, the RTA has called Hughes’s actions “totally unacceptable,” and has suspended Hughes pending an investigation.
Whether you believe that Hughes was right or wrong, from a criminal law standpoint the issue is whether he acted in self defense. It might seem obvious that Hughes was defending himself, but the question is not that simple.
In legal terms, self defense is known as a “privilege.” Normally, you cannot strike another person. But when you are being attacked, you have the privilege of defending yourself. Like any privilege, though, self defense can be abused. Using excessive force, even when you are defending yourself, goes beyond the limits of the privilege.
To determine whether a person used excessive force, the first question is what kind of force was involved. Using deadly force has its own special rules, one of which is the “castle doctrine” which I discussed in a previous posting. With non-deadly force, the rules are not quite as strict. For one thing, you never have to retreat to avoid using non-deadly force.
With non-deadly force, you may use whatever force is necessary to protect yourself whenever you reasonably believe you are in danger. You do not even have to wait for the other person to attack you, if you reasonably believe she is about to do so.
However, even if you need to defend yourself, your response has to fit the threat. If you are attacked by a large man with a knife, you can defend yourself using much more force than you would use if a little old lady were hitting you with her purse.
“Excessive force” means force that is grossly disproportionate to the threat that you face. In one case, a man knocked a woman to the ground, scraping her knee. She responded by stabbing him 27 times with a butcher knife. The court called this excessive.
In another case, a man threatened the defendant with a metal bar. The defendant hit him in the face three times At the defendant’s trial for assault and battery, the judge ruled that the defendant had used excessive force, because one punch would have been enough.
The Ohio Supreme Court disagreed and reversed the conviction. It decided that three punches were not grossly disproportionate to the threat, even though they might have been a little more than absolutely necessary.
So what about RTA driver Hughes? You could certainly argue that hitting a much smaller woman with a roundhouse punch was excessive, given the fact that she posed no real threat of serious harm to him.
On the other hand, can you really say that the punch was grossly disproportionate to the threat? Remember, Lane came back and attacked Hughes again, even after being hit.
Apparently, the punch was not enough to end the attack, so Hughes may have a good argument that the punch was not excessive. It will be interesting to see if he is even prosecuted.
Given the fact that Hughes was driving a public bus, and given the fact that he was much larger than Lane, he certainly could have handled the situation better. Whether the RTA should keep Hughes as a tough question. Legally, though, he may actually have been within his rights when he hit Lane.
Thinking back, it probably would have been wrong for me to use an uppercut on Priscilla Gutierez. But I still think I was entitled to more self-defense than just saying “OUCH!” Maybe I should have appealed the teacher’s decision.
Have a question or a suggestion for a topic? Email dspirgen@SpirgenLawFirm.com.
Patch posts are general discussions and should not be used as advice on any specific legal matter. If you need legal advice on a particular situation, please consult an attorney.
Garry Kanter
8:48 am on Thursday, October 18, 2012
The rules haven't changed.
Compliance with the rules has changed.
Zachary Shook
9:40 am on Thursday, October 18, 2012
Four things that go on record as fact:
1. She didn't pay a fare, and the dispute this entire time was based on the need to pay for the ride.
2. She spat upon the bus driver, as many accounts will tell in this scenario.
3. The bus driver got pushed while the bus was in gear, and he retaliated based upon that action.
4. It was a double length bus, meaning beyond the normal circumstances, he had to have an additional permit to be able to drive an extended bus.
There are laws that the woman broke upon getting on the bus, citing http://www.riderta.com/safety/ as the source. You can't blame the driver, and this is steadily and rapidly becoming the dead horse of our time. Just like the recent bus driver that was doused with hot coffee to the face in retaliation of a patron under similar circumstances.
We're making people more ignorant and more agitated at the authorities and systems in place to protect them and assist them, how, if only for the sake of withdrawal of services, will they learn? It's becoming too much abuse of utility, and not enough respect of the same.
Ms Pinkney
11:44 am on Thursday, October 18, 2012
She got what she deserve! She. Put herself in that situation! She put those passagers at risk, with her nasty behavior!
Susan Kaminski
12:44 pm on Thursday, October 18, 2012
Perhaps RTA drivers should be allowed to carry Mace-type spray as letter carriers do.
Thompson Fitzgerald
12:47 pm on Thursday, October 18, 2012
Now Imagine that the bus driver was a 59 year old White Man. Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton would have been in Cleveland the next day. The idea of her jeopardizing the lives of everyone on that bus wouldn't even cross their minds. Black on Black gets in the news, but White on Black makes the headlines.
FYI, I am a well educated Black Man. I haven't decided on who get's my vote for presidency yet, I've read a lot about people saying that Obama will automatically get the black vote, I don't think that's the case.
MZ
4:06 pm on Thursday, October 18, 2012
Thompson, sadly, I think you are correct about Jesse, Al, and what makes headlines. I will never understand the fixation on race.
Jack Kelly
5:34 pm on Thursday, October 18, 2012
Sadly, Thompson, you are spot-on about Jesse and Al being here, and it being all about race, rather than the facts.
Kim L
6:48 pm on Thursday, October 18, 2012
Eliza there was no reason for that (girl?) to try to get on the bus with no money in the first place then (the girl?) started running her mouth and the driver was just as good about dishing the comments back then came the spitting and hitting and again the driver was just as good about dishing out the hits which was not an excessive hit since that (girl?) charged right back on the bus again ...so eliza this is 2012 not 1958 go back to your kitchen and make your hubby some dinner like a good wife
Eliza
4:13 pm on Thursday, October 18, 2012
What concerns me is not whether it's okay to hit a girl (how about we drop the gender roles and agree that it's never okay for anybody to hit anybody, except in self-defense?). It's whether the bus drivers are well-equipped to deal with belligerent passengers. About a week before this incident, there was a rider on my bus whose behavior was extremely disruptive, disturbing, and loud. I tried to inform the driver of this, and his response was "there's not much I can do, welcome to Cleveland RTA" and more to that effect. (WHAT?!) The belligerent rider then turned on me and another rider who also tried to get the driver to intercede. The driver's failure/reticence to act put us riders in harm's way. I suppose I should have called the police myself and not bothered with the driver!
As for this case, I don't know whether the driver would have been able to get the rider off the bus before it escalated, whether he would have had time to contact the police and get them on board, or if there was another way to disarm her without punching her in the jaw. What is very clear from the video is that before the exchange got physical HIS words were not remotely calculated to quell the situation. He was totally incendiary and provoking. The RTA needs to let him go, and reconsider the training of its drivers.
Garry Kanter
4:19 pm on Thursday, October 18, 2012
He should have stopped the bus.
Jack Kelly
5:36 pm on Thursday, October 18, 2012
He was totally incendiary and provoking?
I would like to suggest you learn the meaning of those big words before you use them again. The situation had already begun -- by the broad from the ghetto.
Eliza
6:15 pm on Thursday, October 18, 2012
Jack Kelly- I beg your pardon? I'm not sure I'm the one that needs the dictionary, but I assure you I can speak perfectly well without the condescending suggestions, especially from someone who apparently doesn't flinch at racist/sexist qualifiers.
The driver said: "I'll bring my daughter up here to whoop your a**", "looks like someone sliced your face up", and called her derogatory names. These phrases were totally escalating the situation, to say nothing of being unprofessional. It's anyone's guess how effective he could have been by stopping the bus or contacting police, but he handled the situation very poorly even before she used physical force on him.
Zachary Shook
6:47 pm on Thursday, October 18, 2012
Get real, Eliza. This sexism approach is overreaching.
She skipped the fare.
She was disrespectful toward the bus driver and standing while the bus was in motion.
She spat upon the bus driver while the bus was in motion.
She threatened & hit driver while he was driving, and threatened the whole bus.
She's looking at a felony in this case.
She was saying enough that he was just making himself feel better about having some ghetto onion scab disrespecting a man while he's serving the community. The woman assaulted a driver, continued to verbally assault him because she didn't have the money to pay bus fare, and he gave her a free ride to a final destination, during which time, he may have said something to transit authorities, and she continuously disrespected the man, spat on and assaulted him. Someone caught the last two minutes on film, now a media frenzy. She's an impostor of a woman, if ever she was one.
There's no profiling. There's no sexism. There's a nasty piece of trash being nasty as one of those statistically proven stereotypical situations, and got laid out. No misogyny; just pure defense. Reality, checked.
Eliza
7:52 pm on Thursday, October 18, 2012
Zachary- No. Calling out the use of derogatory names for internet points is not the same thing as apologizing for the bad behavior of the person in question. I did not say her behavior isn't despicable or that she didn't need to be subdued. I'm saying that the RTA driver's handling of it WAS, and that the RTA seems to have a problem in either vetting or equipping their drivers. Cleveland is a big city- there are going to be belligerent passengers (I've experienced plenty of them). Driver's jobs can't be easy, but they have to know how to deal with this without punching their riders or passively letting disruptive behavior escalate into threats and fights, or they shouldn't be driving.
This rider wasn't acting out because she is black or female, she's acting out because she's a human being and we're jerks sometimes. The driver insulted her with gendered name-calling and only made the situation more heated. She definitely responded in kind, but he's supposed to be the professional. Commenters on this story seem to think there's no problem with making gendered, classist and racially-charged insults, and that is reprehensible, not remotely helpful or pertinent, and pretty undignified. How are terms like "slut", "ghetto", "b--ch", "broad" etc. acceptable or relevant to the issue? I know people don't behave well when their poorly-judged remarks get pointed out to them, but seriously, did you READ my comments at all?
Jack Kelly
8:09 pm on Thursday, October 18, 2012
Eliza,
Again, the incident had already been "provoked" and became "incendiary" by the woman who INITIALLY attacked the bus driver.
Period.
And, as I thought in an earlier post, Shadia Lane, the ghetto POS from the hood, has already retained an attorney. No offense to attorneys, there's always -- unfortunately -- the lowlifes in the industry who see this as way for THEM (not necessarily the client -- because I'm sure he's taking AT LEAST 33% of any award that MIGHT be given) to get paid. I hope this POS attorney asked for a jury trial.
Zachary Shook
8:52 pm on Thursday, October 18, 2012
@Eliza- those are the affirmations of a victim, and I can understand your individual need for help. I'm sorry that you became the by product of the acts of an indecent society. In regard to here and now, then and there, we see a woman who ridiculed a man because she was too proud to pay, threatened violence, wouldn't get off the bus, then spat, got violent, and did it in front of the camera.
Catching the last two minutes of a long event is a way of not taking into account the perspectives of others whom were victims. Plain and simple, this is an issue of driver victimization. He tried to get help. He called it in and waited while she escalated the situation like someone who didn't care about the repercussions of the violence created, whether verbal, emotional, mental, or physical, and all have differing values.
In my regard, it's sad I have to double speak, saying it practically verbatim twice to convey a point you're not getting. In the finality of everything, it shows her spitting, pushing, talking in a derogative fashion, and had ultimately skipped out on the fare. No matter how hard you repeat yourself, about men and women, or the demography of Cleveland, it boils down to a crime happened, and anyone has the capacity to take abuse, but you're going to have to be apt to defend yourself when the public is in direct concern of a rogue's attacks.
Eliza
4:14 pm on Thursday, October 18, 2012
Not to mention, his "if you're going to act like a man I'm going to treat you like a man" comment was misogynist and gross.
Earl Elevant
11:29 pm on Thursday, October 18, 2012
But, in the end, she acted like a man and was treated like a man.
Patch reader
10:25 am on Friday, October 19, 2012
"Priscilla had attacked me and her nails had left four bloody cuts on my arm. I wear the scars to this day. But I still think I was entitled to more self-defense than just saying “OUCH!” Maybe I should have appealed the teacher’s decision."
Spirgen would have been better off having his sister 'deal' with Pricilla after school.....
I think Artis Hughes was pushed beyond reason. I don't know many people that would put up with being sworn at, spit in the face and then be choked by a drunken idiot who refused to pay her fare.
RTA either needs to put cameras on their buses and/or have undercover security ride a few of them so 'problem' riders can be more easily identified and dealt with.